John Portch: Arianna, Sarah, and Stephen, you’re very welcome to our Kitman Labs and Leaders Performance Institute podcast series. I wanted to start with the macro question.

John Portch: The women’s game is on the rise. The 2023 FIFA Women’s World Cup, for example, saw an impressive surge in viewership with projections estimating that over two billion people watched the tournament globally.

John Portch: This marked a significant increase of around 79% compared to the previous edition in 2019.

John Portch: The number of professional leagues in Europe has increased from just one in 2019 to four today in 2024.

John Portch: There is a strong push for women’s football to become the first billion euro industry by 2030 with significant investments being made to support this goal. To what do you attribute this surge in interest? Arianna, I’ll go to you first.

Arianna Criscione: Can I just jump in on one thing, though, that I think is super important just so the world knows?

Arianna Criscione: You’re totally right that the US did do it in 2022, but there’s actually other countries that had equal pay much earlier than the United States that don’t get enough credit. So Iceland and Denmark had it around 2018, and Brazil actually did it before the US in 2020. And so there’s a lot of places too where they understand the equality within the game is extremely important, especially at the national team level.

John Portch: Would you concur with that, Sarah?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. Absolutely. And I I think it’s highlighted by, you know, the US particularly as, as mentioned before, their their fight for pay equity, and their recent World Cup successes and now Olympic successes. I think that’s been a a big factor in bringing profit to the market, particularly here in the US. And then also in the UK, watching the English women’s team and the euro success and and that marketplace and the and the dollars that have been spent in the WSL as well too. I think those two really the the rise more recently can be attributed to some of those the players and former players around those teams.

Sarah Smith: I think that’s really elevated the visibility, in those two major markets.

Sarah Smith: And, also, just looking at the business model that some of the teams, particularly in the US, are are starting to see the profit, of working in women’s sport. And so that, I think, those two factors really came at the right time, yeah, for women’s sport.

John Portch: Yeah. And New Zealand, Australia, Wales, and Ireland are a few more that spring to mind when it comes to equal pay between the men’s and women’s teams.

John Portch: And, Stephen, what is your perspective as someone working very near the coalface?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. Listen. I think that the thing that’s changed the most is probably just the exposure that this, you know, that that female sports has received over the last number of years. And I think that’s changed because, you know, I think there’s a couple of there was some some really, really successful teams that, showcased the real like, the the value of female sports, but there were some superstars that were born as well.

Stephen Smith: And I think they were able to, to create, like, a a an an opening for themselves and and create a voice for the game, and they stood up and and did so. And I think through a combination of that success, I think the interest that was being garnished in, like, some superstar talent that, then the money started to follow that. And I think you you only have to look at, like, what’s happened over the last year with franchise like BFC coming on into the market and, like, the the price tag that was afforded to that franchise. And then I think them selling selling out an entire season before they even had a a roster filled.

Stephen Smith: And then I think more recently, the the franchise being valued at, I think, almost twice whatever more than sorry. More than twice what it was originally invested twelve months beforehand.

Stephen Smith: I think that showcases the real economic value and the business value, and that that’s important. Right? Sport like, once once we all love the game, I think for ownership and for the relevant investment to come into sport, the business model has to has to be there. It has to be sustainable. And I think in a really quick period of time, female sports have shown that they have, like they deserve a seat at the top table and that it’s a really important thing for society and that people really care and fans want to be involved and that the games are fantastic.

John Portch: Stephen, you’ve painted a positive picture there for women’s sports, underscoring both the cultural and economic significance of the growth we’re witnessing.

John Portch: And if we consider owners, executives, practitioners, and, of course, the players taking the industry as a whole, how well is it addressing women’s football as its own entity separate from men’s football? Does the industry perhaps do a good enough job of considering the female athletes at the heart of the game? Arianna, perhaps I can go to you first on that one.

Arianna Criscione: I don’t think it does. I think some clubs are doing doing it right, and some applications and some platforms have female specific aspects to it. But I think overall, for decades, we’ve been comparing women to to men. Most data most scientific data has always been about men. Even I mean, there’s a lot of research about cars and car accidents and women get injured because seat belts and, I’m losing my train of thought in English. The the bag.

Arianna Criscione: When you when you hit something with the bag that comes out, what is it called? Your thank you. Your airbag.

Arianna Criscione: The the weight and everything is geared towards male bodies and not female bodies, and I think that completely flips over to the women’s game. We have some big names and big organizations coming in and and focusing more on the females. But, unfortunately, it’s fortunately and, unfortunately, it’s so nascent that the data is just not there, and and there’s not enough for us to really dig in and help women when you think about we talk a lot about ACL injuries, and it’s not just ACLs, but the injuries that women are having because they’ve always been compared their bodies have been compared to men.

Arianna Criscione: The training programs are compared. We do the fitness tests at the same level or the numbers or they just drop off ten or fifteen, twenty seconds what that might be rather than understand the female body. That is different. Our bodies are different.

Arianna Criscione: We can’t fight. Like, we have periods.

Arianna Criscione: We we have boobs. Like, they’re different. There’s things that have to be taken into account.

Arianna Criscione: And I don’t think they are enough today. We still just focus on kind of what we’ve always done or what’s been there except the few organizations that are really focused in on this.

John Portch: So, Arianna, you’re advocating there for a more tailored approach to women’s football that recognizes and addresses the distinct needs of female athletes. Sarah, does that chime with you as well?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. Somewhat. And I think, when we we think about female athletes, there’s a concept of training women as women. And I think someone I’ve worked with, quite closely in our, startup of our club is, Kirsty Elliott-Sale in Manchester, and she proposes the the concept of training as athletes. And if you consider a female as an athlete and, some of the concepts around the foundational work around training as an athlete, including sports science, S&C, mental performance, nutrition, medical, and that includes some of the aspects of female health, and of ovarian hormone profiles.

Sarah Smith: That I think the foundation of training as an athlete with the that considers the female athlete perspective if you actually train a female athlete as an athlete, and I think that will help support far more making sure that we we do consider all those aspects as well as the female anatomy that we need to take into consideration. That’s really the focus that needs to be first and making sure that our female athletes have resources to train as athletes, and that’s nutrition. That’s high-quality s and c support and sport science, mental performance, and mental health support.

Sarah Smith: All of those factors, I think, are also equivalent to making sure that our, female athletes have a level playing field.

Sarah Smith: If you don’t address those issues and you just address the female physiology, you’re missing a huge part. And so I think adding that additional resources to make sure that our athletes have what they need to be athletes at the highest level is is primarily important, and that takes, naturally into consideration some of the female physiology as well.

John Portch: That makes a lot of sense. A more inclusive and comprehensive approach to training female players, recognizing their specific requirements while also treating them as equals.

John Portch: So what do you think should be the priority for teams starting out? Where did you start at Angel City, for example?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. Again, so just going back to making sure that we have an a good foundation of support around our athletes. So if I look at the umbrella that sits underneath me as in in medical performance, making sure we have high quality sports science, that a person that is looking at, team periodization, working well with the technical staff, working with our medical staff, and our mental performance and nutrition staff and as well as our physicians, but just really integrating, the workload for our players that’s relevant to the type of, the style of play that, we look to play, our league, the demands of our league, and the type of player profiling that we require for our group, to make sure we really understand our athletes and the type of profiles, physically that they have and what they need to develop.

Sarah Smith: And then adding additional services around, medical staff and making sure they have a full entry and, availability of all the different services that they could need as a as a human, but also as an athlete and having access to that service.

Sarah Smith: In addition, looking at our nutrition provision, making sure that we have the availability of fuel on-site and the access to it and removing some of financial by barriers from accessing mental performance support, mental health support, and making sure our athletes have that holistic experience, in our club environment is something we’re still you know, it’s always an evolution no matter how long your your club has been around. There’s always an evolution, but I think really creating that foundation around our athletes that they removing barriers to access, for any services, recovery services, whether that’s massage or anything that you wanna, look at that has some evidence informed, practice.

Sarah Smith: That that was really key for us to make sure that our our athletes had that experience, and it’s not perfect.

Sarah Smith: And we’re not the best at it at this current moment, but that’s where our goal and, with us where we’re headed for sure.

John Portch: Arianna, you have a very cosmopolitan roster at Como with players drawn from across Europe. Several of them represent their country at international level.

John Portch: How do you then set priorities with your playing group?

Arianna Criscione: I think you have to look at the roster that you have and what their specific needs are. I think you have to have a base. I would I guess, I I make the assumption that people already look at us as athletes, and so I don’t say athlete and then female athlete. I think what we’re missing is that female element.

Arianna Criscione: So I also agree with Sarah, but disagree that that there has to be more focus. I think she’s very lucky to play at a club that is an independent club and that really focuses on the athletes that they have and and can put it there. But in other countries, it’s not where the focus is, and and that gets lost. They have a really great structure, and so they just copy and paste it to their women’s team, which is not enough.

Arianna Criscione: I mean, I think, though, at the base, I was right. Like, you have to have a base, and then just depending on what level your club is and what league you’re playing in and the resources that you have to give to your players. But you have to have nutrition. You have to have sports science.

Arianna Criscione: The depth of what those look like and and how much you can actually offer will vary from club to club and and country to country, but those definitely need to be there. I think you also have to have a medical or access to medical outside for those things that we didn’t necessarily talk about. But a lot of clubs don’t have access to a gynecologist, which is a major part of the female body and really needs to be addressed a lot more.

Arianna Criscione: I think an interesting one too is dentists that are not actually, assessed enough, and and how important your teeth are to performance. And if you have an off bite, that can actually affect how your structure is and how you’re running, which could cause injury. So a few of these things that just depending what the makeup of the organization is, but the bases need to be there. Your players need to be able to feel safe while they’re playing, and then they need to have access, to see the right kinds of doctors and professionals depending whether that’s mental nutrition, S&C coach, data scientist.

Arianna Criscione: All of these kinds of things are really important. I would love to take that a step farther in the work that I do. And, you know, I think it’s super important for athletes to be thinking about what they do off the pitch. I think for mental health, it’s really, really important for athletes to be given options and outlets to express themselves, whether that’s going to get formal educations, but not necessarily, but learning different skill sets amongst social media or, even visual arts like photography or videography and things that they can get behind so that when they are not training, which you do not train all day long, you do have time to learn a couple things.

Arianna Criscione: It’ll give you a passion. It will also let you identify as something besides just a football player or a soccer player.

John Portch: So we’re talking about female specific needs, access to medical support, safety, and well-being.

John Portch: Stephen, you heard Sarah and Arianna discuss some of those issues there. How might Kitman Labs support and plug into an environment to deliver upon those priorities?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. Listen. I think it’s not just us. Right? The whole industry has to move towards being able to support the female athlete and and the female athlete movement.

Stephen Smith: But I think the you know, we’ve we’ve covered lots of the topics, but, we do know that the female body is completely different. The anatomical structure of the female body is completely different. The hormonal cycles for the female body is completely different.

Stephen Smith: And I think that it it’s it’s simple to, like, rush past that and suggest, okay. Great. Females, like, go through the menstrual cycle, and we need to be able to track that. Well, like, it’s not just about tracking that.

Stephen Smith: We we make it sound like it’s just one thing. It’s every single athlete, and they’re all going through that cycle at a different period of time. That that becomes a really complex, like, management approach. And we know that the release of hormones through the menstrual cycle are gonna have a huge impact on ligament laxity, on, like, you know, muscular balance on, like, coordination on motor motor and reaction times.

Stephen Smith: And those things then have a compounding impact on, like, our ability to develop performance and improve our performance capabilities in female athletes. They’re having a huge impact on injury risk and the prevalence of injuries.

Stephen Smith: And at the at the top end, the elite end, you know, that’s having an impact on availability and, like, maximizing performance in games week to week. But in the developmental side, that’s having an impact on, like, the likelihood for an athlete to actually get get from being an elite youth athlete to actually being having you know, exercising their potential and getting to the professional ranks.

Stephen Smith: So I think what we have to do is, like, Arianna, I think, mentioned at the very beginning, all of the research that we’re relying on for the practices within female sports today were is research that was performed within the within a male game and with male cohorts and male approaches. And I think we have to completely turn that model upside down. We have to unfortunately, we’re starting relatively from scratch, with elite athletes in the female game. And we need to and I think this is this is something that we’re seeing some gover governing bodies and league stakeholders starting to take an interest in this, but it has to happen en masse.

Stephen Smith: We have to start collecting way more information and data, and we have to start defining what are the most important questions to help improve our female athletes and improve their potential. What are the most important questions in terms of, how do we protect them through that period as well? And I think if we can start to do that and we can start to cultivate, a dataset that’s large enough that allows us to answer these questions, then we’ll be able to inform some of the practices for some of the stakeholders that Sarah mentioned in terms of we need better nutrition involved. We need better, you know, sports psychology involved.

Stephen Smith: We need, you know, even even the the gynecological aspect. I think there’s so many interesting questions that we could ask there, and some of the data being collected could really inform.

Stephen Smith: And I think the the reality, the impact of not having those services today means that we have, like, huge huge potential within the youth ranks that are never that are never actually, you know, getting to to achieve what they could. And I I don’t know if anybody here has ever read the book, Good for a Girl by Lauren Fleishman.

Stephen Smith: But I I would highly recommend you read that. It was you know, it’s written about a a potential Olympic runner who, from the US who had incredible potential and had huge amounts of success but never got to achieve what she really wanted to achieve or potentially could have achieved based on the the quality of talent and and athlete that that she was. And when she looks back on her career now, she she looks to the fact that she didn’t get the same support. She was being supported like like a male athlete, and it ultimately, in, I think, three successive Olympic cycles resulted in her picking up injuries at the wrong time that stopped her from getting there.

Stephen Smith: And I think that that that’s incredibly sad to think of, like, what what’s actually happening and the fact that she didn’t have the support needed. And I think we’re we’re seeing that play out in lots of, female professional sports today. So I think it’s it’s on us to try and help with that, but it’s on, you know, the the whole industry to come together to solve these problems. We’re not gonna do it by ourselves.

John Portch: Stephen, you’ve discussed there the complexity of female physiology, which requires a nuanced approach, as well as a more extensive research and data collection process.

John Portch: It’s going to require the commitment of clubs, leagues, federations, and other stakeholders, of course. Arianna, I want to move the conversation onto the question of player identification, talent development, talent pathways, and if you consider the senior level, player development.

John Portch: How do you reflect on how these disciplines are evolving since your own playing days?

Arianna Criscione: I mean, it’s evolved massively. You actually have young girls’ teams that are only girls playing, where a lot of the time, I was lucky that in the United States and where I grew up, soccer was very popular and there was a hotbed of soccer. So I only ever played with girls teams. We play against the boys, which was lots of fun.

Arianna Criscione: But, I always had the opportunity to play with other girls where when I got to Italy and other European countries, a lot of my teammates had grown up playing on boys teams until they were fourteen or or fifteen. And there’s some positives to that. Their skill or or how they trained was was a bit different because the opportunity there for those teams, but that also meant a lot of girls fell off or were uncomfortable playing with the boys or didn’t. So we also probably lost an entire generation of women that could have been playing in in at the highest level.

Arianna Criscione: Today, you have more clubs, not enough in my personal opinion, even two. I’m sorry. I’m gonna throw this out there. I think the NWSL could start creating their own academies or or go into that and and what that looks like.

Arianna Criscione: But, you have top clubs, and there’s academies now for girls and more of a pathway to get to the professional level. I’m gonna be really excited when we can see that in other countries or in continents. Like, Africa has got great talent. Obviously, we see two players that are killing it in the NWSL right now with Chawinga and, Barbara Banda.

Arianna Criscione: But there has to be so many more girls out there. And how do we find that talent, and how do we scout them? Because that, we’re still lacking. The scouts aren’t out there.

Arianna Criscione: Again, the scouts aren’t out there because the money for player training isn’t the same as the men’s game. You don’t have the same development organizations that you have the men’s clubs having third and fourth different groups in certain countries.

Arianna Criscione: Yeah. So it’s super interesting. Another super interesting one, and I just wanna throw this out there so people go research it, but we’re probably not gonna go into a detail. Like, North Korea, what are they doing with their youth players and pathways to to win two World Cups, for the youth back to back?

Arianna Criscione: I’m really interested, and I have no idea how I’m gonna figure it out. I found some articles, but I’m not enough to know what their pathways are. But, like, obviously, there’s a way to start training younger girls and and what can we do and where can we go. So I do think there there needs to be more research and more work done in this area.

Arianna Criscione: And, you know, as Stephen was saying, we don’t have enough data for the scouting and, like, how to go look at those players. And and there’s just not enough money also too, I think, yet in the game to make that worthwhile for some people to to create these these platforms and these, to get the scouts doing it per se.

John Portch: Sarah, how do you address those questions at Angel City? How do you approach player development, talent identification, and how do you plug into that in your role?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. Well, thankfully, I don’t, have to work so much in the talent ID, area.

Sarah Smith: But I listening to my technical staff the other day talk about, one of the platforms that we have right now has, about forty thousand players that it runs through, and that and that’s an incredible volume of players that they can look through, and they can look at their statistics that are publicly now available.

Sarah Smith: And they can have the opportunity now to look at profiling them from afar and and making decisions about what might be right fit for our clubs. And I don’t think that that has been in the last couple of years as immediately accessible.

Sarah Smith: And what an amazing opportunity to have forty thousand people on the global roster to potentially look at coming into our club.

Sarah Smith: But it is, a matter of resourcing, so that’s a lot of players to look through.

Sarah Smith: And clubs, even in our club right now without a significant scouting and recruiting department, the ability to go through that that list of players is is limited. So I think from my perspective, the exciting part is that we are seeing the globalization of particularly our league and players coming from all over the world and thriving in our league. And then once we get them here, our ability to to profile them, at whatever age or stage of career they they are at, We’ve obviously gone towards a bit of a younger, development pathway. You’ll see that by some of our roster pickups, and that’s really exciting to look at these young players and be able to influence them.

Sarah Smith: You know, we have players that are in in high school still, that are professional athletes, and that’s an incredible opportunity.

Sarah Smith: And it’s it’s really interesting to for me to see the level of support that these this new generation actually has around them. You know, they’re coming in with a much more advanced training age than some of our senior players would have had at age sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen, and I think that’s wonderful for the development of the game. I I agree on the academy system. It’s it’s a goal for sure of the end of BSL, and I look forward to that hopefully happening in the next couple of years as we can spread down and and widen our base of support.

Sarah Smith: But I do think our young players are coming into the professional game at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty at a much better standing now because of the access to resources they they now have and the value that the club environments they have come from has has put on in this country. And that’s that’s hopefully a model that we can see grow in other locations, but, definitely, there’s been a massive shift in the last ten years.

John Portch: Well, listening to this, it’s clear there’s still so much work to be done to ensure thorough resourcing and greater systematizing. Stephen, in your opinion, what questions need to be asked in player development and talent ID?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. I think, it’s probably it’s probably a bit more complex than just, like, listing out one or one or two, but I think we need to, we need to better understand how does, you know, how do things like hormonal balance, how does it impact our ability to develop and improve performance characteristics in in female athletes? I think we also need to understand how does the impact that both hormones hormones on the female anatomy have on biomechanics and then understanding the influence of biomechanics on specific types of injury risk, etcetera. If we you know, clinically and if you look at historical sports science and medical research, we know that females, because they have a wider hip angle to support childbirth, that we know that we they’re they have more knee valgus. And we know that the impact on, like, jumping and landing of that is that there’s more pivot shift in in knees, which gives rise to more likelihood for ACL injuries.

Stephen Smith: But I think we what we don’t know is we don’t know how that actually changes throughout stages of the menstrual cycle. We don’t know how that gives rise then to increase in in the number and prevalence of ACL injuries. What we also don’t understand is what types of physical interventions, what types of, like, physical development, strength and conditioning practices actually reduce that that impact as well. So, like, what what practices from a training perspective actually improved the biomechanics, based on this, and then how what’s the knock on impact of that in terms of injury risk and injury prevalence.

Stephen Smith: And, again, it’s really hard when you look at having a club with thirty athletes to collect enough data to be able to then say, well, this is the real impact. Like, it would take ten years worth of data. And that’s why having entire leagues that are focused on this and focused on like, every team can have their own approach to how they’re developing these characteristics, but we need to collect the data and information. And we need to be able to compare the standards and the practices of each club to be able to say, actually, people that train in this type of way, that focus on these types of aspects, have less injuries or more injuries for these reasons.

Stephen Smith: I think that’s what’s going to have a real impact on the game. But, you know, I think this is great, us talking about, and the fact that this is important, but we actually have to do something en masse here to make a difference.

Arianna Criscione: Stephen, I have a question. Can I ask you a question, Stephen?

Stephen Smith: Yep.

Arianna Criscione: So when you’re talking about the standardization of the data, how does that work or how does it look? If not, do you think every club is actually collecting it in the same way?

Stephen Smith: No. No. They’re one 100% not.

Stephen Smith: And and I think, you know, we’ve seen this with many of the leagues that we work across that, you know, even even if teams are collecting the this data internally themselves, the the mechanism by which they’re collecting it, the format that they’re collecting it, the consistency that they have with collecting it, the context of the data that they’re collecting on top of it, all of that wary varies, like, really widely. And that means that, even if even if we got all the data that had been collected over the last number of years in Teams, it it may be it’s no good. Like or it could be large portions or pockets of it are no good. And that’s why I think leaks and governing bodies need to come together to solve these problems because you have to establish that standardization.

Stephen Smith: And, you know, we’ve seen I think, to to be fair, the the NWSL and, the WSL and the UK have have, you know, made started to make inroads here. But, like, this needs to be something that happens, like, on a much wider format and fashion. And then, also, I think that’s the the datasets that we’re collecting need to be need to be broader than they currently are today as well. Because if we’re just collecting injury information, great.

Stephen Smith: We’ll understand the types of injuries that are occurring. We’ll understand where they’re occurring, etcetera. But, actually, if we don’t collect information on the loading patterns and what’s happening for athletes on on the field, if we don’t collect a certain amount of standardized physical assessment information, biomechanical assessment information, we’re never going to be able to compare biomechanics to these outcomes either. So we have to get really smart about defining what those questions are, understanding what datasets would we need to be able to support research to answer those questions, and then actually start doing it.

Stephen Smith: Federations need to be stakeholders like you guys involved in teams, and it needs to be people like us that are in technology that are actually building the capability to actually make that happen as well. It’s like it’s the whole industry needs needs to move towards this if we really care about it. Yeah. Well, I think this week, we saw the that movement, the the release about Unstoppable.

Stephen Smith: Right? That that six year plan towards, the sustainable ecosystem for women’s football.

Stephen Smith: My hope and I haven’t seen all of the details of what what’s involved in Unstoppable yet. But I think it’s great that they’re saying, yes. The female game is here. It’s hugely important.

Stephen Smith: Let’s really go and get behind this, and let’s take a long term approach to it. But I hope that that encompasses topics like we’re talking about today, and I hope that they do pick the phone up and call us. Right? And I I would love for us to be involved in some level of steering committee as to, like, what should that look like?

Stephen Smith: And I think the experience that we collectively have built up through the different angles that we’ve come at this industry, whether as an athlete, whether as a service provider, or whether as, like, you know, a company like us supporting teams within this industry, I think there’s an enormous amount of value and it is going to take a whole village to make this to make this to to make it real, to make this successful.

John Portch: So data is rendered ineffective when the collection methods and formats vary in consistency, which is where leagues and governing bodies, as you say, should get their heads together.

John Portch: On top of that, it’s important to broaden the types of data collected, isn’t it, beyond just injury stats to include aspects like loading patterns and biomechanical assessments. But isn’t that change already happening?

Arianna Criscione: I mean, I think there’s, I think we kinda said it before. I think some places are doing it. Some places are paying attention. Angel City seems to be doing it right and and breaking down all the the aspects that need to be there to create a better athlete and for what they need with the services that are, offered to them.

Arianna Criscione: I think the bigger issue comes down is when you go into the grassroots or when it trickles down to smaller clubs that don’t have those resources and they don’t have I don’t wanna say the right people, but not as experienced people in certain roles that without a standardized book, like, they don’t know where they’re going or what they’re doing. So I truly I mean, I I absolutely agree with Stephen that if if we could create not maybe not we, but if there was created, some sort of textbook that was very clear about this is the the data points that need to be collected on a regular basis, I think that would also help those other clubs that are smaller or in more rural areas and then also help the grassroots level.

Arianna Criscione: Because if you’re also preparing players at a younger age to do those trainings or to to do preventative sessions that maybe we don’t know exactly yet, but they can just start to doing it when they hit that professional level or the higher ranks. Their bodies have already been trained to do these things, and and we’d hope that the injuries are going down and and a lot of positive things are coming out of it. But, yes, I do think there has been some change, but a lot lot more can and should be happening.

John Portch: That’s an interesting point, Arianna. So by implementing preventative training and support from a young age, players could potentially reduce injury rates and enhance their performance as they progress to the higher levels of competition.

John Portch: So, Sarah, in your role, how do you use data on a day to day basis? How does it inform your decision making? And how much are you relied upon to make judgment calls on behalf of your department, on behalf of your team, etcetera?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. Data plays, you know, a major part in our, day to day lives. We collect a lot of information, on our our players, and that’s it’s it’s very helpful, first, to hold ourselves accountable to what we’re doing, and are we are we being impactful on the players? Are, are we helping to support training outcomes? Are we helping to, are we getting our recovery processes right so that the players are ready for match day?

Sarah Smith: It gives us an ability to monitor things outside of just training metrics, whether that’s sleep and and mood and stressors that inevitably come into our our players’ lives, as well as other aspects that we can track. And I think we also have an ability to to get subjective information from our players, and and note commentary that’s not just a number scale that we we we track. And I think it comes all of those data points inform whether or not we need to have a conversation really with a player, with a technical staff member, with the medical staff, and whether or not we need to take a step forward and make actionable change or whether or not we need to monitor or whether or not we need to take a step back or or whatever action.

Sarah Smith: It’s sort of underpinned by the data, but also with the individual in mind and also with their subjective feedback and then the other aspects that they’re they’re dealing with. So it’s a major part. We collect a lot of data. Stephen knows that we, you know, we love, using all facets of Kitman.

Sarah Smith: It’s all full.

Sarah Smith: And our players love to hate everything that we collect, but I hope that they see the value of what we collect, but also informing that it is a multidisciplinary conversation about what how we use it with them before we actually often take actionable change.

Sarah Smith: Yeah. That’s their their voice is important as well as the data.

John Portch: Does it help to almost have a single number when you’re having a conversation with a player or a coach rather than a spreadsheet of numbers and information, or is that too simplistic? Where does the balance sit?

Sarah Smith: I honestly think it’s it’s multiple points that is actually more helpful, to be honest with you. So, you know, a player can come in and say say they like, they’ve come on off a game, and they’ve, like, oh, I’m so heavy.

Sarah Smith: But if we look at their, their monitoring, we look at how they’ve slept. We’ve looked at, their their soreness, and they they’re just reporting heaviness. We can look at the data and say, well, actually, like, physically, you’re actually in a good spot, so let’s continue with the day, and then we’ll see how you do tomorrow. Or vice versa, the player feels amazing, but their metrics and we have multiple points that are saying, well, actually, they’re not in a great space.

Sarah Smith: Like, we should actually maybe just be a little bit hesitant or maybe we rotate you out one more time than, we had originally planned. So I actually think multiple data points, help to make with our decision making. It’s just about you as a club deciding which ones you value more than others, and how do you how do you internally have a framework to assess those data points and put weight to some of them more than others, yeah, depending on the the player.

John Portch: I see. And will you gamify elements of that? Will you put, like, running stats up on the locker room wall or gym based stats?

Sarah Smith: Yeah. It’s it’s it’s happened a little bit organically, particularly in the gym. There are certain things that are more impressive to others than visually.

Sarah Smith: And, yeah, we’ve enjoyed that, definitely in our culture, and and some of our players have really latched on to that that aspect for sure.

John Portch: I think that’s something we’re hearing a lot more about across the world of sport. And, Stephen, how does Kitman Labs work with teams and organizations to develop confidence in the numbers that emerge? What helps to capture and integrate relevant information?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. Well, I think we’re we’re not cultivating the numbers. Right? The numbers are coming from their environments.

Stephen Smith: Our our role is we’re not producing, let’s say, the raw sourced information. We’re ingesting that information or providing tools to allow them to capture information that that they, you know, have within their their their ecosystem. So, I think the our our job is not to, not necessarily to provide trust in in that. It’s to provide trust in the fact that we we can help them to bring the information together, and they’re getting the relevant context from the understanding if they can see these pieces together to to so to Sarah’s point, it isn’t one data point.

Stephen Smith: It’s, hey. I’m looking at what what their, you know, running output look like on the field. I’m looking at, like, what their technical stats were looking like and how their where the performance level are technically. I’m looking at the medical and recovery side and seeing how is that changing and how is that compared to normal.

Stephen Smith: And I think the trust comes from being able to see all of those pieces together and being able to have that holistic picture of the athlete, but also being able to see how that’s changing for them from day over day, week over week so you can understand what it means. Right? Having the output and saying this is how much the person ran today, like, what does that really tell you? It doesn’t tell you much unless you understand how does that compare to what’s normal for them, how does that compare to their positional standards.

Stephen Smith: You know, how how does that, what what is the knock on impact of that in terms of how they’re going to recover, what they’re gonna look like tomorrow? And I think it’s about providing that lens and that picture that doesn’t just create trust for Sarah and and Dan and and their team. It actually creates, I think, trust for that whole environment. So for the conversations that Sarah can have with coaching staff, the conversations Sarah can have with the athletes, and it’s the the that’s the trust that’s important, right, is is those conversations and everybody understanding that she knows what she’s doing. She knows, you know, she’s developing an expertise and a and an opinion and a lens on that information that’s going to help them to get to to get better and make the right decisions.

John Portch: So what we’re talking about here is a systematic approach to data that supports athletes holistically, ensuring that all relevant factors are considered in their development and performance. Arianna, in your own environment at Como, how is the data able to give you a critical agent identifying and addressing performance gaps?

Arianna Criscione: I don’t think I’m in a position to actually answer that question because I’m not in the locker rooms of the other clubs to know exactly what they are are not using, so I would not even try to take a stab at that.

Arianna Criscione: I think the data is a great resource for us. And I think as an organization, we highly value data, and it’s really important. But we’re also very realistic to the different clubs that will be under our umbrella. And so some of those clubs will be data informed clubs, and some of those clubs will be data led clubs. And I think there is a distinction between those two.

Arianna Criscione: At the moment, we’re still working with how we interact with the data and and where that goes and and our club using it to the the highest of its ability. And, again, at this moment, I am not on the ground or in that locker room or with our analyst to to share. And I I don’t think it’s good for me, good for, like, good for anybody for me to try to explain exactly how they’re giving that information to the players because I’m not there.

Arianna Criscione: I think one of the things, though, especially with data, it’s it’s not just the data that we use with Kitman, though. It’s also as a communication platform, which is also really great. Like, having one platform that the players go to on a whole, especially being an ex player and not having to go search for things in different places or getting emailed stats from here and there, just that’s a great aspect that that’s really helpful to us right now.

Arianna Criscione: I think data is always super beneficial, but I’m a ex player who also for me, and I’m gonna be controversial here, data depends on who’s giving it and how they’re able to actually explain it to you. Otherwise, it’s useless. And so you can have great platforms. You can have great information. But if the person actually defusing that information to the players can’t do it in a bite sizable way that they get it, it doesn’t make a difference.

Arianna Criscione: And so there’s an important piece too, and I think it goes back to what Stephen was saying of education and standardizing that the players are educated on how to receive the information, and staff is educated also on how to give it. Because there’s very cool things out there all about data, and you could do this and you can do that. But if you can’t give it to the coaches that then can implement it on the pitch, it doesn’t make a difference.

John Portch: So Arianna, thinking about player development and performance gaps, what’s the one change you’d like to see?

Arianna Criscione: I still think and and I’m gonna die by this sword. But I still think actually thinking about what happens off the pitch and not just focusing on the training and, like and more than just recovery.

Arianna Criscione: But I think we’ve trained players to think so much that if they that you have to eat, sleep, drink, breathe football a hundred and ten percent of your whole life. And if you don’t, you won’t make it or you won’t do it. And I think it’s the wrong way, to actually approach it. I think that that actually hurts our players. And I think from the mental stability that we’ve seen a lot, that’s the problem there. And so I think it’s actually player development off the pitch can actually start to help them on the pitch.

John Portch: Right. So you advocate for a more balanced approach to athlete development that prioritizes mental health and personal growth alongside athletic training.

John Portch: And what about you, Sarah? What needs to be in place in terms of support when looking to lead that change?

Sarah Smith: I think, I would say the openness and access to resources and the sharing of best practice.

Sarah Smith: I think, FIFA and UEFA, are starting to do a good job of putting together good people in in in the right rooms to be able to share some of the good work that has already been done.

Sarah Smith: And I think that ability to share good quality resources and information and education across multiple practitioners across multiple levels of the game will ensure that the people that are on the ground or in place have the right, have the right education and have some of the tools that don’t necessarily mean that they’re crazy technology and crazy spends, but the basics to be able to provide the right support for our players.

Sarah Smith: And then the ability to create sustainability and the support networks around the players. And that that that area is really valued, so those practitioners have the ability financially to continue to stay in that game and have the resources and education as I said before, but to continue to impact for years to come. And then this is not a place where one or two years and then you you get burnt out because you don’t have access to education and resources and best practice, and you are able to impact the players. So I think a little bit around resources and education, and then also how do we keep, women’s football as a sustainable place, for people to sup continue to support, our athletes.

John Portch: So we’re talking about collaboration, education, and sustainability to enhance the supports available to female athletes. Stephen, anything you’d like to add?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. I think listen. I’m just waiting on the call from FIFA and UEFA.

John Portch: So Well, fingers crossed they call you all soon, and thank you all very much for your time today.

John Portch: I really appreciate it.

John Portch: And listener, keep your ears peeled for episode three, where I join Stephen again in talking to Yael Averbuch West from Gotham FC and Dr. Karl-Heinrich Dittmar from German champions and DFB Pokal winners, Bayer Leverkusen.

John Portch: Stay tuned.