John Portch: Gentlemen, welcome to our Kitman Labs and Leaders Performance Institute podcast series. I’m delighted that you’ve been able to join the conversation, so let’s get right into it. You’re all very invested and active in creating more formal processes around the development of talent pipelines and establishing player pathways at academy level. But why has it become such a critical topic in football today?

John Portch: Is it the opportunity to drive revenue in the commercial market? Or is it the rising cost of talent acquisition? Or is it a combination of all of those? Paul, what are your thoughts on that particular topic?

Paul Prescott: Sure, John. Thanks for a nice easy question. It’s come it’s come straight to me. Appreciate that.

Paul Prescott: Yeah. Look. I mean, talent development underpins everything, doesn’t it? We all we all know that. The aspiration, the opportunity for players to follow in the footsteps of the Erling Highlands or David Beckham for an older generation and to to live out that dream themselves is a lot of the reasons why people fall in love with sport in the first place. And it’s always been the organizations that have been able to, leverage that and to create the right processes or the right pathways that have benefited the most in the in the past. Clearly, though, we are seeing that there’s a different financial and regulatory situation in play at the moment, particularly in football, and that’s forcing clubs to to look closely at how they run their talent development pathways, their academies, and the the longer term strategies.

Paul Prescott: We know that it takes patience, it takes investment, and it takes a longer term view.

Paul Prescott: And I think in the UK, in English football in particular, we are seeing that some of the decisions that were made maybe ten, twelve years ago are beginning to to kinda bear fruit when it comes to talent development.

Paul Prescott: The elite player performance plan, you know, the Premier League’s, professional games, long term strategy for play development.

Paul Prescott: Before that came into play, there was a a recognition across English football that there was millions of pounds that was being spent on bringing in global talent from all all parts of of the world. English clubs basically funding talent development models in Spain or in in Brazil, because English talent wasn’t seen to be at the same level as players from those countries.

Paul Prescott: So the recognition back then that something needed to change at that cycle of buying players from other countries and in turn, investing into their own talent development is something that that needed to happen. And I think off the back of that, with the English football in particular is beginning to see see the benefits of that come through. That’s that’s not to say, of course, that English talent hasn’t benefited from mixing with international players and having a core group of homegrown players train and play alongside the best international players in the world at the age of sixteen, seventeen, eighteen has tremendous developmental benefits, for for all those players involved. The Garnacho coming into Manchester United’s academy and train alongside those players is is certainly beneficial for that for those those homegrown players in that particular academy.

John Portch: You’re absolutely right, Paul. And I think Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) has changed everything since its launch in twenty twelve. A Premier League report two years ago, in fact, revealed that seventy seven percent of professional contracts at Premier League and EFL clubs are held by homegrown players. And there are more than eight hundred full time coaching positions in club academies, a figure up from two hundred and fifty in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, and there has been close to two billion pounds spent on youth development by Premier League clubs.

John Portch: Now looking across the channel intercontinental Europe, Morten, the Danish Super League has traditionally been an exporter of players across Europe, including to the Premier League. How has this informed your model at Aarhus?

Morten Larsen: Yeah. Because Denmark is a small country, and the league is a small league. So so that’s one thing we can do to compete with, other clubs in Europe. So we need to produce talent players, because one thing, that’s how clubs survive, financially, to earn money.

Morten Larsen: It’s also a little bit if we’re gonna bring, you players in or players from another country into to to the first team, it’s it’s, yeah, it’s it’s a big cost for us. So so if we can introduce players by ourself, then it’s, the cost for for the weights for for the for the players is smaller. So so it’s very important for us to just, yeah, to to survive, is to bring talent into the first team and further on, sell them to other countries, bigger leagues, bigger clubs.

Morten Larsen: And that’s, like, I can say that’s the vision for for all the clubs in Denmark because all clubs, beside Copenhagen, I think, is the only way that we can get a revenue in in the final, yeah, budget.

Morten Larsen: So so for us yeah. That’s why it’s so important that, that we bring talent to to the first team and also bringing talent to to other countries.

John Portch: You paint a vivid picture there, Morton, and there’s a clear financial necessity both in terms of tapping into the local talent pool and generating revenue from player sales. You do it so well as a club too. You’re competing right at the top of the Super League this season with FC Copenhagen, whom you just mentioned. You opened your new Fredensvang training facility in 2021. Youth development was a crucial cog in that. You run your AGF talent program from under tens through to under nineteens, and you place a strong emphasis on education and personal development.

John Portch: So how does Head of Academy (Ahos)’ position relative to your opponents feed into your talent development processes?

John Portch: What enables you to get the most out of your system? What are some of the structures that you can put in place that enable you to deliver the program at an optimal level?

Morten Larsen: Of course, first is, the style of play. That’s that’s the main thing, because, when we are picking players in in the country, there’s a we’re competing a lot. It’s again, it’s a it’s a small country, so, not so much talent in the country. So, talent in the country. So the we have, I think, thirty minutes to our and, yeah, to our rivals. So it’s it’s the clubs are close, in in the country.

Morten Larsen: So we need to have a clear style of play so we can pick the right tenant first.

Morten Larsen: So when we kick in tenant ID, that’s one thing, style of play, tenant ID, so we can pick the players that who fixed to us.

Morten Larsen: And then we use data, data for the environment and also for the team development. And then yeah. Right now, we are using Kitman to to do that.

Morten Larsen: And, otherwise, we as a we have we have, scouting, of course.

Morten Larsen: We have, head of academy, so on and so on and so on. But but the main thing, our curriculum, is all about the style of play to produce the the talent to the first team.

John Portch: That makes a lot of sense. A clear style and tactical consistency helps players to understand their roles and responsibilities.

John Portch: I guess it fosters unity.

John Portch: And that shared understanding can enhance communication on the pitch, making it easier for players to anticipate each other’s movements and decisions.

John Portch: Coaches can also design training sessions that align with that style ensuring that players develop the necessary skills and tactics.

John Portch: But Stephen, I just wanna bring you into the conversation here. How do you reflect on what you’re hearing? At Kipman Labs, you work with a multitude of teams and leagues. What are some of your thoughts on talent developments?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. I think we, we’ve we’ve seen over the last ten years a very definite shift towards investment in talent development. I think that that comes for generally two reasons that we hear. One is one is to, like, provide long term success for organizations because I think the the access to talent, the cost of, like, of talent on the on the global markets has become, like, pretty astronomical.

Stephen Smith: And that means that, you know, not everybody is going to be able to compete with, you know, the top three or four clubs around the world that have, like, a different type of model and have, like, a, you know, huge amounts of revenue coming in and and makes it very unachievable. So I think being able to build a talent pipeline that that can deliver the next generation of success and and mean that you don’t have to have, you know, billions of dollars in in transfer fees available over a short period of time is important. I think I think the the other dynamic that we see, that’s the the club dynamic.

Stephen Smith: I think the the other dynamic we see is is a league dynamic, which is about sustainability and and success as well in that. I think ten years ago, every league across the world would have said, hey. Talent development, that’s, like, that’s the club’s job. Our job is to organize the competition.

Stephen Smith: Our job is to get, like, the right the the right to get the, you know, TV deal done, to get the to bring the sponsors to the fore, etcetera. But I think now most leagues are realizing that if you don’t have top tier talent coming through consistently, you’re not going to have incredibly competitive games. That means you’re not going to have a huge amount of viewers that are interested in watching your game, and you’re not going to have, like, the best TV rights deals. You’re not gonna have the best sponsored deals, etcetera.

Stephen Smith: You’re not gonna be selling the merchandise that you want. So I think most leagues have started to realize, and and this is probably because of the success that the Premier League have built, because of the investments they’ve made is that they have invested in incredible infrastructure for talent development that has resulted in a production line of talent that is coming out of, like, you know, not just the top twenty clubs in the Premier League, but actually, like, you know, ninety to a hundred clubs across across the country. That’s creating incredible competition between Premier League to championship then into the EFL, and and that’s creating a really, really exciting dynamic that is bringing viewers from all over the world to watch this and see what’s happening.

Stephen Smith: And I think other leagues are starting to look at that and go, wow. How have they done that? And they’ve realized that, well, the the the quality of the talent there is it they’re not just relying on one or two clubs. Actually, though, the talent is is flowing in from from all corners of the country.

Stephen Smith: And I I think that’s that that’s changing mindsets all over the globe now with regards to to to talent development.

Stephen Smith: So there’s a growing understanding that sustainable success in football relies heavily on talent development strategies.

John Portch: And it probably makes sense to go to Paul at this point, as you bring both a league and a club perspective to the table. You were instrumental in creating the data and analytics infrastructure across the Premier League to support the elite player performance plan, which you’ve already discussed. And you’re now at Macclesfield with that club lens. How do approaches differ between league and club?

Paul Prescott: Well, look, the goals are similar. Obviously, the the budgets are a little bit different at the moment, but, we the goals that it’s about equipping the players and the and the the staff with the right information to make better decisions. That’s that’s ultimately what we’re we’re trying to do here and what we’re trying to do previously at the Premier League. What what is different is the, other type of decisions that are being made and the time frames in which you’ve got to make those decisions.

Paul Prescott: So Morton’s already touched on this. You know, it’s about medical stages of players. Are they are they fit to train? Are they fit to play?

Paul Prescott: Should they should they come off at a certain point in time? Should have they had enough workload for that particular week or day?

Paul Prescott: Is it the right time to sign a particular player or to release a particular player? Like, the these decisions have got a greater immediacy to them. Whereas from a from a kind of lead perspective or, when an organization is trying to implement a system or a a process at scale across multiple organizations. The role there is to be to inform strategy, to use the evidence as a at at your disposal to inform policy decision making or or a particular new investment that might need to be made or a particular challenge that needs to be addressed. And that means that there’s there’s a a requirement to take a bit more time, to have a bit more discussion, to analyze, to compare, and to research and to make sure that the evidence that is is being referred to is, reliable and trusted.

Paul Prescott: So, the principle obviously being from a a lead perspective that all these individual clubs like ours now, if we contribute to something over the space of a year and you’ve got ninety two clubs or twenty clubs that are all part of something, the the speed at which those type of big decisions can be reached is much quicker. There’s a bit much larger dataset that’s available, in a short space of time than an individual club is ever gonna be able to create on their own. So that idea of being connected of a a kind of an overall purpose and a league be able to implement that across multiple clubs that all understand and buy into that principle is is a key bit really to to get right and to understand. There’s obviously different sides to that, whether that’s on the club club side or the league side.

Paul Prescott: Either way, from a club perspective or from a a kinda lead perspective, there’s there is this recognition that there is an overwhelming amount of data that is available when it comes to talent development. There are lots of different sources of information out there, lots of different systems that are in play, lots of different bits of data that people are being asked to interpret and to make sense of. And how a league or a club gives people the right tools or the right, understanding to be able to leverage or interpret that information and use it in the right ways.

John Portch: So there’s some shared challenges for sure. And as you say, I guess the biggest difference appears to be that clubs need to make more immediate decisions while leagues compete more strategically.

John Portch: And, Stephen, just listening to Paul there, some of these issues with data and analytics are universal, whether that be trust, reliability, or speed. Now, in addition to working with Paul on the formation of the football intelligence platform for the Premier League, you you also work regularly across many leagues and clubs in instituting data and analytics based systems to support their talent ID and development programs. So what do you see personally as the fundamental difference in goals and approach between leagues and clubs?

Stephen Smith: I mean, I I I think there everyone is trying to to achieve the same thing. Everybody is invested in in, like, the fact that, that top tier talent more top tier talent needs to be produced. I think the difference is just how people go about that. I think when you talk to individual clubs, you know, sometimes there can be concerns around things like competitive advantage and what they’re doing internally and and why that’s special or different than someone else’s.

Stephen Smith: The leagues probably care less about the uniqueness of, like, one particular club and that, you know, the edge cases of what they’re doing. I think that it’s about an elevation of standards. Right? It’s about governance and ensuring that everybody is is conforming to, like, best practice across, like, very specific areas.

Stephen Smith: So I think, actually, the when when leagues get it really well, and I think the Premier League again are are are the the template organization for this, They’ve come in and said, well, here’s the rules and regulations. Here’s what best in class looks like in each of these core areas, and we wanna make sure that you’re going to you’re going to adhere to all of that. Anything that you want to do over and above that or outside of that, that’s your business and that’s your that’s your competitive advantage, and you keep that. And I think if you if you, you know, if people are thoughtful enough about about that journey and about, you know, the fact that you you still want all of these teams to go out and kill each other every week.

Stephen Smith: Right? You want you want them to go at it and you’re like, that’s that’s the spirit of sport. Right? You want people to go and, like, have that, have that competitive nature when they when they go into a game.

Stephen Smith: You want them to be to be trying to do different things. You want them to be pushing the envelope. You want them to be expressing themselves in unique ways. And I think if you can get that balance at at the league level where you’re institutionalizing, benchmarks and standards that elevates everybody and ensures that everybody that plays within a league is at a certain level, but then you allow each organization to express themselves uniquely and to do what’s special to them and to to, you know, to fulfill their vision in unique ways.

Stephen Smith: I think something quite magical happens. Right? And I think that’s, you know, that that that’s that doesn’t have to compete. Right?

Stephen Smith: And I think sometimes it’s easy to look at, well, we couldn’t do that because our clubs want to do different things themselves. I think, like, everybody in it within a league is invested in the success of the league. If the league is not successful, nobody is successful. Like, there there are no prizes for one team being the best team in the league and the other nineteen below them being, like, miles off.

Stephen Smith: That that erodes the quality of a competition.

Stephen Smith: And by proxy of that, it erodes the financial and economic gains that can be that can be associated to that. So everybody is invested in some way in in in each other’s success, and I think you see this in certain weeks. When you look at the NFL, though, they the NFL owners are, like, their business partners in the boardroom, but then their competitors on like, in the stadiums.

Stephen Smith: And I think even though the ownership model in the NFL dictates that that’s the way they that the way that they they operate, I actually think we’re starting to see that more and more often in, in in other leagues. And that to me, that’s how the Premier League are trying to operate today. They understand that, hey. We’re going to compete. Like, we’re going to compete when we when we when we show up at the stadiums, but we’re going to make sure that we are the best in the world, about what we do and how we do it to ensure that we, like, we build, like, we build consistency, we build sustainability, and that we future proof our success.

John Portch: So you’re talking about a collaborative yet competitive framework that enhances talent development across the league while allowing clubs to maintain their unique identities, which brings me nicely back to Morton. When you consider the talent development processes you’ve implemented at Aarhus, did you find it challenging to secure support across the organization?

Morten Larsen: I think in the mostly of the clubs in in Denmark, the board are starting to make the strategy and the vision for for the club. So everybody is buying in. That’s the only only way for a Danish club, to do, talent development.

Morten Larsen: So so not not in that way, but but, of course, we have challenge because, we also have to win the next game for the first team. And and if you look at our club, we are big club in a big city in Denmark, but have not won so much the last couple of ten, twenty years. So everybody expected that we need to get back to winning again in the first team because we are big club. We have a big, history. We have won a lot in the past, and we are big city.

Morten Larsen: So that’s the challenge for us because we all know that if you want to win something, sometime the talents are not good enough in that moment to win the league.

Morten Larsen: But the old guys are there and can compete better than the talent can.

Morten Larsen: So that’s the challenge for us right now is to give minutes to to young players, and still winning the next game, the next game, the next game. And that’s a challenge every week and every weekend.

Morten Larsen: But but the strategy and the vision from the board to to the academy, the first team, we look at the same. So so and that’s because it’s coming from the board.

Morten Larsen: If if what if this was coming from me, from the academy, and we are pushing up, I don’t think it will happen. Never because then the the the head coach for for the first team, he will he will win. That’s his job.

Morten Larsen: So it has to come from the board.

Morten Larsen: And if you do that, I think it’s much easily easier for all the all the colleagues, all the the staff, all the, yeah, employers to to buy in, in this this way of thinking to to make revenue in in a club and still competing in in in the league.

Morten Larsen: This is this is Minnis. If if we can produce players who’s good enough that the head coach will choose them to play Minnis, that’s the TPI for them. And then we also have, of course, TPI for how many players can we sell.

Morten Larsen: Right now, we are building a a new stadium in in. So to first, we have a key PI that we have to sell about, fifty million millions, kronas. So the is seven seven millions a year every year.

Morten Larsen: So so that’s how they are looking at it. And, and then we have that we or every year, we have to sign two players to the first team from the academy.

Morten Larsen: So the board are looking on on these three things.

Morten Larsen: Can we sell some players? Are they good enough? Playing playing minutes, for the first team. And then, do we produce good enough talents that we can sign two players from every age group?

Morten Larsen: Yeah. One thing is is again, we have to look at style of the play because, like Paul said, we can use a lot of data.

Morten Larsen: We we have very, very many, data.

Morten Larsen: But if you look at the style of play, we are pressing high, for example.

Morten Larsen: We we like to control the game with the ball.

Morten Larsen: So some of that, we are using, data on, for each player, and all the physicality, of of the player, the load of the player. Can he prints, can he spend? Can he press a lot of times in a game and so on? All that things we are using data on. And then that’s the the one thing. And the other thing is also we are using data of how much do the practice on their individual development plan.

Morten Larsen: So we we believe that if we have to develop a player to the first team and also in the first team, it has to be in the football context, so in the game context.

Morten Larsen: But, you still need to develop the one player and his plan for, yeah, to to be, better.

Morten Larsen: And that we are trying to use data on. So, every week, we can see how much do they practice on the individual plan and the principles of that.

Morten Larsen: We are lose using a lot of data on that. So if the team training, he’s not getting enough, In the team training, we could take him out, and then we can practice with him on his own, so to support the team training.

Morten Larsen: So that’s two main thing we are using data on, in the in the talent development.

Morten Larsen: Because the way we have, building it up is that we have our style of play, and then we have our principles.

Morten Larsen: And all our principles is in a technique, tactics, way. So, when I’m building a training, then I choose from the curriculum, tactic and a technique, principle.

Morten Larsen: So I can see, every training what we have working on, and I can also see have, number ten, position working on his, plan. Okay. He has not working on his plan. Okay. You have to wait twenty minutes more with him after the training.

Morten Larsen: So it’s it’s all the data is about the start of play.

John Portch: And, Paul, what about your experience at the Premier League? How has that fed into your work now with Macclesfield in terms of experience and learnings?

John Portch: Are you applying those in your day to day at present?

Paul Prescott: I was very fortunate to work with some very smart and driven, innovative people for the Premier League. There’s a really good team of people there who work in every day to try and, you know, just in the the department that I was in, football development, thinking about how do we develop better players, how do we support the club developing better coaches, and and more recently, staff and match officials too. So a huge body of work that’s going on there.

Paul Prescott: It’s whether that’s the football intelligence platform, the project we mentioned earlier, which obviously across ninety two clubs that work in partnership with the EFL, in partnership with Kitman Labs to kind of deliver something that, you know, is really trying to is at its at its roots trying to cover that many clubs and to create a singular process and consistent process across so many different teams with different methodologies and different approaches.

Paul Prescott: It’s ambitious. It’s an ambitious project that is is, has been launched and, you know, we we were very fortunate to have people that supported us with those kind of, those ambitions.

Paul Prescott: Similarly, you know, Premier League have launched the the the competition with the the national new National League competition that sees players being given academy players being given a unique opportunity to play for first team football against National League teams.

Paul Prescott: So those types of partnerships that the football development, department del delivers, I think, has has been something that I’ve certainly taken a lot of learnings from and looking to apply into into this role. It’s it’s a a critical part of what we’re trying to do here at at Macclesfield and at the international football group.

Paul Prescott: The kind of culture of learning that exists across the Premier League, so probably things that are probably less known about, but the way that the Premier League supports coaches, if they’re in situ within clubs with a with a a kind of a develop development program, supports academy managers, academy directors with a kind of leadership development program as well, which is a kind of two, three year offer for so that those people that are in those roles, which are incredibly challenging roles to be in, and particularly, as you you talk about from the academies that have got, you know, hundreds of staff. Like, it’s a it’s a really important role in the future of English football and, you know, the Premier League working with EFL and and others to develop those individuals and continue to support them.

Paul Prescott: We we we try and have the same approach here at Macclesfield, like the owner of Macclesfield FC is a is a successful entrepreneur in his own right away from away from football and has now brought those kind of learnings from his own industry into into the football club. He’s constantly driving standards, driving people to be more innovative, more creative about the way that we work, and and and that’s that’s been that’s provided similarity for me coming away from the Premier League and coming into that environment. That’s that’s what I’ve been used to. So help me to to adapt into it into a new role.

Paul Prescott: We we work together on a project called International Football Group, which has been been around for about four years. And that, at at its heart, is about developing innovative partnerships with leading organizations. We work with Barcelona, we we work with Juventus, we work with a number of leading universities to provide football education pathway opportunities for for players around the world. And all the work that we’ve done, has been similar to the work that the Premier League have done in recent years about it’s not just about what happens on the pitch. Like, the the the the focus of that around that technical tactical development, is not the only part of a of a kind of football development offer. It’s about what happens away from that, whether that’s in the classroom or more socially, providing the best environment possible for for for players to continue to develop.

John Portch: So it’s about collaborative projects, a culture of learning, innovative partnerships, and holistic player development.

John Portch: And what do you think, Stephen, when you visit clubs and have conversations with people? When it comes to data and analytics, do you find that people these days are more data literate? That they’re able to delve deeper into those conversations?

John Portch: Or is there a level of comfort that there perhaps wasn’t in years gone past?

John Portch: What are some of your observations when it comes to that use of technology and analytics?

Stephen Smith: I think there’s certainly more appetite.

Stephen Smith: I think there’s, there’s a huge appetite for data to help people understand what what information means. Right? I think over the last ten years, there’s been a an enormous focus on the collection of data and information. I think the vast majority of clubs feel like they’re now sitting on huge amounts of information.

Stephen Smith: I think we’re still, you know, we’re we’re still at a stage where people are trying to understand what that means. Right? And I think we’re data, like, we’re data rich and intelligence poor in in lots of clubs still. And I think, especially when we talk about things like talent development, It’s not it’s not going to be a one and done.

Stephen Smith: Right? You’re not gonna collect data for a year, and now all of a sudden you have the secret sauce to how to develop talent. Right? We have to, like, we have to build that pathway of information.

Stephen Smith: Right? We have to start collecting it and collating information on those kids the first day that we meet them at eight or nine years old. We have to follow them all the way through. We have to establish what that pathway looks like, and then we have to come back and look at that for and and ask questions of that and perform longitudinal research on it to understand, well, what were the what were the differences in the athletes that made it through to the professional game versus the ones that didn’t?

Stephen Smith: What were the characteristics about them that allowed them to get there? What were the you know, how did they, advance, and how did they develop based on the stimulus that was provided versus the athletes that did not? And they’re, like, they’re, you know, they’re they’re they’re big pros projects, but I think there is, there is lots of, like, early indicative information from clubs that have already been invested in this, and they’re starting to see what that looks like. And that’s helping them to understand how do we change our curriculum moving forward.

Stephen Smith: How do we look at the way we support our athletes? How do we look at investment in different types of, coaches or the the rest of the professional infrastructure, whether that’s fitness staff, sports science staff, medical staff? What are the types of practices that we put in put in place for them? So I think there’s there certainly is much more data literacy today.

Stephen Smith: There is certainly much more data appetite, but I think that there’s a there is a massive want for intelligence. And I think, you know, that’s why that’s why we’ve been investing so much in the solutions that we have, and that’s why we we really believe that there is a there is a very different path forward here, for for talent development leveraging data and and analytics.

John Portch: Well, sticking with you for a moment, Stephen, you just talked about the appetite there. And if we talk specifically about the academies of world football, are you noticing greater integration between academies and the first team setups? Do you see a greater connection there? What are your observations on that front?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. One hundred percent. I think, you know, years ago, we would have walked into clubs and their academy structure would operate as a completely separate business unit almost where the people that run the academy didn’t talk to to the staff of the first team and, you know, there there was there wasn’t the alignment, there across those. I think you now walk into these organizations, and I think they have an overarching mission for what they’re trying to achieve as a club.

Stephen Smith: And they understand that their their talent development systems are being built to, number one, provide, like, you know, provide a production line for their first team, but, number two, then to generate to, you know, to generate talent that that can be valuable on an on an open market as well. So I think those conversations are happening. There’s much more alignment between the style of football that clubs want to play. I think you’re you’re seeing that clubs are making deliberate decisions to say, this is this is our identity.

Stephen Smith: This is a type of football that we want to play regardless of whether we change our coach every eighteen months.

Stephen Smith: This is who we are and how we play, and this is how we want our academy set up to basically develop talent for our identity, for our brand, for our culture, for who we are. And I think that that that’s a huge maturation point within the industry to get to that, to realize that you can’t change your strategy and your style every, like, twelve months and when you’re making long term investments in an academy structure that’s not capable of supporting that. It doesn’t mean that you don’t have different game styles that you want to deploy, but there needs to be a there needs to be a known identity for you to build talent that are capable of then supporting that into the future and building that long term sustainable model. And I I think clubs are clubs are getting really smart or organizations are getting really smart about understanding that and starting to think more strategically about, like, the process from the start all the way through to the end.

John Portch: That’s very interesting to hear you say that, Stephen. And I want to go to you, Paul, next. Listening to what Stephen just said there.

John Portch: Do you think that the elite player performance plan was a catalyst, or was it something that was already in motion? And how has that influenced the way that clubs in the Premier League, for example, operate when it comes to integration between their academies and their first team setups?

Stephen Smith: Yeah. I think it was it was a huge point in time really for English football about how that came in. Like, the the processes that were introduced, the regulatory kind of frameworks, the quality controls, the quality assurance processes, everything being clubs being accountable across a number of areas and providing feedback about it can continue to to improve and evolve, I think has had a has a has a huge impact on not just the academy systems, but the way that clubs as a whole are kind of operating. We’re seeing, I think, the the staff that are coming that have been in the academies are now in sporting director roles or in in head coach roles in in first teams or in senior kind of admin roles that those those kind of, approaches that that that were introduced and those those ways of working with the introduction of the triple p kind of twelve years ago are beginning to be carried across into the way that clubs operate too because people are used to that way of of operating over a number of years and have developed those those types of skills and that that awareness.

Stephen Smith: So I think there has been a there’s a there’s a continued impact across the different areas of football from from the the changes that were made, back at the start of E triple p for sure.

John Portch: You really underscore the transformative influence of E triple p on English football there, Paul, highlighting its impact in terms of enhancing standards and practices across the game? And speaking of those areas of impact, how important is it for talent development systems and academies to be connected to their club’s infrastructure in terms of medical and other areas of performance, coaching, and general operations?

Paul Prescott: I think it’s critical. Yeah. If you’re gonna put if you’re gonna create a full picture of someone’s development like that, that you need to have all of the different facets of of that of of what what a player, different areas of their their individual development needs and how they’re progressing across each each area. So from a from a technology and from a data perspective, that integration is is important. The communication that sits around that equally is is is also fundamental. The clubs that are doing that effectively, that have got good communication channels in place for the for the incidental conversations that happen in in the corridors or things that formal meetings where you sit down and discuss an individual player from a number of different areas are the ones that that kind of reap the benefits, and and we we’ve kind of seen that over over a number of years. The the other part of this as well, John, is about about the player themselves and the information.

Paul Prescott: How how an integrated in infrastructure helps equip them with the information about their own development as well. And, you know, from a talent development perspective, we’re talking about young people.

Paul Prescott: It’s their parents. So what what information a player is receiving across all those different areas and it being of an of the appropriate level for their age for them to be able to understand it and to to use it is really important.

Paul Prescott: The parents, likewise, if they receive information about this their their son or daughter’s, progression and development that allows them to support them in the right way at the right time and to ask the right questions around the coaches and the staff and, again, create a kind of level of of accountability and communication that that’s really important.

Morten Larsen: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That’s that’s very important that we all talk to together, and have the same language.

Morten Larsen: And the data can can help us because that’s because, you know, when you see a player, you can have your own opinion.

Morten Larsen: Is he fit fit enough, or or what is he?

Morten Larsen: Do we do we look tired? And and and all that stuff that we can discuss and also have our own opinion about. But if you have the data, then you have some, yeah, some things you can talk about, and you can you can be together about that and make the same language when you have this discussion.

Morten Larsen: If you key if you need to the player need to to rest, and, you know, the head coach want the the players, to all the trainings.

Morten Larsen: But but sometimes he need to rest, and then we can have a language, together. And we can see in the data that, he need to rest because he’s he’s tired, for example. So that in that way, data is very important to to make, the same language for for all the the colleagues that we are in academy. Because when you look at academy in in today, that it’s look like a a first team almost.

Morten Larsen: You have fitness. You have, hip tools, of course. You have assistant, and you have the physio as a you you have all that things analyzed. So so you need data to be more objective when you talk together.

Morten Larsen: That’s one thing. And and and, also, the parents, like Paul talking about, in in our club, we’d like to have a dynamic environment.

Morten Larsen: It means that we’re not looking in the passport. How old are the the the boys? We are looking in more in the body, in where is he. So so we we see a lot of training here that three or four age group are training together.

Morten Larsen: And, of course, it does make it very complex for the parents to to see through.

Morten Larsen: And, also, there, we, we’re using, data for the for what he is working on, which training, do we work on what. And, also, playing playing time, how much do we, play for age group up? How much do we play down? How much do we play in the same age group?

Morten Larsen: And so on so on. And also for us coaches that we are not forgetting some players because he’s maybe, in three or or or four teams, in one week. So so so that’s very important that that we can use data to see always that that we can see the the players and have the player in in focus. That’s very important for us.

John Portch : Absolutely. And, Stephen, you’re listening to Morton there talking about the data. Paul and Morton both talked about parents. How might Kipman Labs be able to facilitate those conversations?

John Portch : Obviously, you’re bringing hard numbers to the conversation, but how do you enable it to have a human face, shall we say?

Stephen Smith : Yeah. I think it’s important for, like, technology to serve a function, in helping to communicate the information about the progress and pathway of an athlete. So I think as, like, you know, with with the stakes that that are at play for, modern footballers and for youth footballers today, I think parents wanna be able to play an active role in supporting that journey and supporting that pathway and understanding how can they, you know, how how can they, in their role as guardians, help to shape what the athlete is doing, you know, outside of the time that they’re with the club? How can they help them to focus on the things that are most important to them?

Stephen Smith : How can they have, like, meaningful conversations and, like, you know, a a trusted environment about the things that they need to be thinking about, the things they need to be working on? How can they help them through, like, you know, that that evolution of their career? Like, if you think of a thirteen year old, fourteen year old, fifteen year old kid who goes to sleep every night dreaming about being a professional footballer, if technology can can provide a fabric for those parents to understand and to communicate with the coaching staff, with the club about where that person is at, about what they need to do, and they can help to hold their hand through that journey, that’s a really powerful role.

Stephen Smith : That’s a really important role. And in the absence of technology, in the absence of data, those conversations can’t be had, and those parents can’t, you know, cultivate those discussions.

Stephen Smith : They can’t help you know, they can’t hold their hand in the same way. They can’t provide very direct support about what they can do. So I think there’s an enormously important role in technology being a facilitator between club parents and athlete to really, you know, to help triangulate that and and and make that a success.

John Portch : Brilliant. And there’s one final area I want to touch upon today. And, Paul, maybe I can go to you first to get your thoughts on this. Are you seeing the industry move in the direction of consolidating systems and unifying or integrating their operating infrastructure, or is this still a long term goal? And also, how critical is this to the future success of organizations given the increasingly competitive nature of the talent development landscape?

Paul Prescott: Yep. This this is there’s a there’s obviously a bit of tension here between the fact that there’s always there’s so many different systems, piece of technology that exist.

Paul Prescott: And it’s it’s always it’s difficult sometimes for clubs to to to to know our leagues to to pick the right things for the right jobs and to to make the right decisions around that. But the more you add into the the ecosystem, the landscape, the more difficult it becomes to manage clearly. So there’s a there’s a a principle around trying to create that efficiency that things, talk to each other effectively or are housed in as little systems as fewer systems as possible.

Paul Prescott: The principle that I’ve I’ve had in my career is having a having a simpler approach that allows you to draw out more meaningful information is is always the goal. So trying to over complicate things in lots of different areas and lots of different management is is absolutely not what I wanna spend my time doing. It’s trying to find the right things that are relevant to to the things I wanna achieve.

Paul Prescott: So I hope, some way of saying, I I hope that we’re getting closer to that. I know that there’s companies like Stephen’s, Kitman Labs that work a lot on integrating with other systems and trying to find the right way to to get the right information to the to the people at the right time, and that there’s a a kind of recognition that some some tools are gonna be the best thing for that job and that there’s a the absolute part of what the offer needs to be.

Paul Prescott: And that can only benefit clubs if there’s a a kind of clearer ecosystem of of systems available.

John Portch: Morten, what about from your perspective? I mean, you’re on that journey already with integration from the top of the club to the academy. Right?

Morten Larsen: Yeah. Exactly. And one thing that’s very important that you stick to the program that we are choose. I think so because you cannot you cannot have the expectation that for the first moment, it will work because you need to work close together.

Morten Larsen: So I have because in in this job, I have a lot of talks with Kitmans.

Morten Larsen: Not daily, but weekly, because the system are the system, but you have to to make it to your system, and you have to make it to your style of play to you in how you are working, which data do you want. So so and that takes time. That will take time. So that’s very important for us that now we have I think we have yeah. We have been with, Kitman in three years now, And I think we are not there yet, but we are closely.

Morten Larsen: It just takes time. And and if we if we gonna change the system now, then we have to build it up again.

Morten Larsen: So so it takes time to to fit it right to your club. So so patience is also a keyword for for choosing all this, system that you can choose.

John Portch: Brilliant. Stephen, final word. Obviously, patience is important. But do you see consolidation as the order of the day?

Stephen Smith: To some extent, it’s it’s about consolidation. I think, it’s also about streamlining processes. Right? I I think it’s it’s about understanding, you know, which data sources do you integrate versus which one do you consolidate.

Stephen Smith: But I think the concept of, like, having one place, not having multiple systems or multiple systems that are stitched together that you jump from one to the other, like, being able to complete that 360 degree view of an athlete, being able to answer those, like, those questions and have those rich discussions that when when you can see everything and understand all aspects of what’s happening, that that’s the goal. Right? It’s about informed decision making. It’s about intelligence, and it does take time.

Stephen Smith: Right? The these are complex organizations, and we talked about it today. We talked about going from the academy to your first team. We talked about, again, multiple different types of stakeholders that are involved, whether it’s players, whether it’s parents, whether it’s coaches, whether it’s medics, whether it’s sports scientists, whether it’s fitness staff.

Stephen Smith: That’s a really complex web.

Stephen Smith: Being able to bring all of that together and being able to cultivate all of those those different touch points through a system to be able to support those types of discussions, that takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of calories. And and as Morten quite rightly said, it takes a lot of patience. Right? But, you know, I think the the the the the the output that you get from from that level of patience, that level of effort, I mean, if if it was really easy, everybody would do will be doing it.

Stephen Smith: And that’s why you’re seeing, like, you know, really smart guys like this that, you know, really understand those problems, understand them intimately and, like, the work that people that that people like Morten and the team are doing at Aarhus to figure that out and to do what others haven’t done before. Like, that’s what makes all of this really special, and and that’s what makes us really proud to be able to support, you know, clubs like this and and and Paul previously in his role with the Premier League as well.

John Portch: It’s a fascinating space, and I’m sure we’ve given everyone some food for thought today. Gentlemen, thank you for joining the show today. And listener, do keep your ears open for episode two, where I catch up with Ariana Christiane of Mercury/13 and Como Women, Sarah Smith of Angels City FC, and once again, Stephen from Kitman Labs to discuss the rise of women’s soccer. It’s not to be missed. Stay tuned, folks.